First of all neither his name nor title are "Doubting Thomas." That is a man-made name that people have called him and perpetuated oh so often at his proclaimation at John 20:28. He is an Apostle of Christ. You are making Christ less than what this Apostle made of him. Jesus did not say, "Wait just a minute Thomas..." But if you have a desire to deny his full identity then that is your prerogative. There is ample evidence that Jesus is the Almighty. There is nothing else he is identified as in his pre-existence. So he is either a second true God, not really the Son of God or exactly what he is called in the bible.
I am not making Christ less then the apostle made of Him. I just think we need to really understand who Jesus is and who God is, and no... they are not equal! To say so would contradict what Jesus Christ says in John 14:28 " Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." Notice, Jesus himself says "My Father is greater than I". Now, if Jesus says "I and my Father are one", and he also says "My Father is greater then I" what does this tell us? I can tell you this much, this is no contradiction or bad translation, this is Jesus revealing the nature of the Word, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, AKA Yahweh (or God)!
It isn't I that deny the identity of Yahshua (or Jesus), it is the religion of "Christianity", the various denominations which cannot seem to even agree on the basics, that deny Yahshua... at least as far as I am concerned. I can understand how you might identify Jesus the Christ as the Father, even as Jesus has made several distinctions in the bible. In one manner of speaking, Jesus IS GOD, but God is not Jesus. God is greater then Jesus, because God is not man, nor is he the son of Man, God is greater then his creation, greater then any man, including Jesus Christ.
How could he have seen God?
He saw the man Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh. Col 2:9 Any who tries to understand it can. Anyone who's prerogative is to reject it can. No he did not see the very being of God. He saw the physical image of God and right now it sounds as though doubting Thomas, as you call him, has a faith far greater.
I'm sorry, but the appellation I applied to Thomas is quite appropriate. He would not believe that Jesus arose from the grave until he actually SAW Jesus in the flesh:
"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. " John 20:25
This is the only reason I (and others) apply this label, as far as I know. I agree he was an apostle of Jesus Christ, and I really meant no disrespect, just to state that Thomas went from doubting that he even rose from the dead (as he said he would) to (supposedly) claiming he was God.
Could it be possible that Thomas was not referring to Jesus Christ when he said "My God"? Could it be that he was saying "My Lord" (or my Master") to Jesus because he recognized him, and saying "My God" to the Father by which hand Jesus had been resurrected, perhaps even recognizing that God was with Him?
Paul write in 1John 4:12 " No man hath seen God at any time.
Actually John wrote it, but that isn't important. It is true, no can see God in his very being and live. We can see God in the flesh. That isn't like seeing God though. Do you understand? If you see God in the flesh you see a man. He may also be God in his very nature but all you see is man.
Right, John wrote 1John, LOL, sometimes I guess I think Paul wrote the whole New Testement, sorry bout that.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I do not understand how the Spirit of God can possibly be bound by the flesh.I don't understand how we can not see God in his very being, and yet it would seem to me, if you say Jesus is God, then you are saying that Jesus is the very being of God, which is what i have issues with. I agree, if you see God in the flesh, you see a man. God is in me, and in you, and in all who profess that Jesus Christ is the anointed Son of God, and believe in His Word. I would say yes, I know God is in us, but I wouldn't go so far as to say we are God.
did not expect to find Jesus being God in the bible. I was raised a JW. When I was born again I read it without bias and found that Jesus is truly the Son of God, very God in the flesh. You ought to not reject it before you understand it.
I did not have such a handicap, having been raised by semi-religious baptist parents, and gone through a "normal" church upbringing, to believe that Jesus is God and that we are sinners, who will burn in hell if we do not believe in Him. I think that's pretty standard Christian teaching, and I think it's very misinformed teaching, not from the Word of God, but from the teachings of man.
I know that sounds pretty arrogant, but it's my honest opinion, based on the years of research I have done on the bible, and seeking understanding and wisdom from God. I don't think very many people really take the time to know the bible, the nuances of the Greek and Hebrew, the idioms of the respective languages, the very subtle (and sometimes often great) mistranslations , or misinterpretations of the "how many different?" copies of the texts. I don't think very many people even know the changes our "bible" has gone through, or about the councel deciding the books that were kept and the books that were tossed. How many are aware that the Bible mentions books outside of itself, even going so far as to tell the reader to refer to this book or that book, which (as far as most know) doesn't even exist.
Anyway... I'm sorry to have gone off on a tangent, but to be honest, when you said "You ought to not reject it before you understand it." pertaining to reading the bible without bias, you hit a nerve. My only real bias, when I read the bible, is the truth. My very reason for reading the bible, is that I might understand His will in or for me, to follow where he leads, and not where some man-made religion leads me. I have really studied both sides of this issue, and I have prayed on this issue very hard, I know that in one sense Jesus is God, but in that same sense so are you and I. I also know that Jesus, himself, made a distinction between God and himself, as well as made it clear that he was "one with the Father" (spiritually I believe).
The trinity, as far as I can see, is a man-made doctrine based for the most part on verses such as 1John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Well that just isn't true. That scripture was altered to make a trinity proof text. The bible calls the Father, God; the Son, God; and the Holy Spirit, God. The apostles made it clear that Jesus was truly the Son of God, very God in the flesh. That he was not and is not an angel, that he created ALL things that were created and Jesus himself claimed to be God. There is no way around it unless you don't want Jesus to be God.
There are so many reasons that Jesus must be God I could go on and on.
I don't think it has anything to do with who or what I want Jesus to be. I want to know Him as he is, not as I want Him to be.
If the Father needs the Son for a task does that mean the Father is not God? IMO, you don't want Jesus to be God. If you did, you would understand. But you don't so you can't.
Understanding comes from God, and if you are correct about Jesus being God, I have no doubt that God will make this clear to me. At this point in time, everything I see points to ONE God. Emanuel does not mean "God is us" it means "God with us" which is who Jesus is. I don't believe we were ever meant to worship Jesus, but we are meant to believe in Yahwehs Salvation, AKA Yahshua (AKA Joshua AKA Jesus). Did God dwell in man? Yes, I believe that he did and does. Is God a man? No, I don't believe he is, or ever was a man. I believe the kingdom of God is within, as Jesus teaches. I believe that if we believe in His Word, which he has given us through Jesus Christ for our salvation, that we will know Him within us, even as we are known by Him. Would this make us God? I don't believe so, it would only make us a part of God, a part of the whole, which is greater then all of the parts.
Jesus calls himself the Good Shepherd. Then when a man calls him Good Teacher he snaps back, "Why do you call me Good? There is no one Good but one, and that one is God." How was it relevant for him to jump all over such an expression? It wasn't unless you realize he is claiming to be God.
I don't get your argument here, but I do understand the verse you post above and I know why Jesus "jumped all over" the expression. I know that Jesus calls himself the "good shepherd". I also know in this same chapter Jesus says "I and my father are one." John 10:30, for which he was nearly stoned "... because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
The question I ask myself, is in this same context, how did Jesus answer the charges? First he pulled the scripture on them, and agreed that God had call those "whom the word came to" gods. (shades of JW?), and Jesus also says that this scripture "cannot be broken". Furthermore he says that "the father sanctified [him] and sent [him] into the world"... questioning how he could be blaspheming, if this is so, when he claims to be "the son of God". If he doesn't do the work he was sent to do (the work of the Father), he says, don't believe him. But if he does the Work of God, even if they don't believe him, believe the works... "that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
Nowhere do I see Jesus accepting their accusation that he is making himself out to be God. First he shows that there is a different "sense" of the word which pertains to those who "have been given the Word" (not saying he is God, but that in the scripture others were called "gods".) Then he says, he merely claims to be "the son of God", sanctified by God (not God himself, but sent by God as far as I can tell).
What do you want? For him to stand in the temple and say hey pharisees I AM THE GOD OF YOUR FOREFATHERS! He would be dead in two seconds. Every time he came close they tried to stone him.
They wanted to stone him several times, because they believed that he made himself out to be God. I believe that in a spiritual sense he was God with us, that the Word of God did dwell in the person of Yahshua, and that the same Word by which Yahshua was anointed we are anointed in Yahshua. I also believe that what he did while he was among us (men that is), we also can do. Those works and even greater works then these. Why? "Because I go unto unto my Father." (John 14:12)
I don't see the duality of God that so many seem to see, or the triality as the case may be. I see one God, who moved through Jesus Christ. I believe that the same Spirit who moved through Yahshua is Yahweh, and this same Spirit is sent in His name (Yahshua) by the Father (Yahweh) to those who believe in Him.(John 14:12-17)
Oh so when the Apostles Confess it you say, 'Well that doubting Thomas, you can't trust that guy!' Or you try to make it into a contradiction without understanding. But your position is clear. When given the option you lower Jesus. Well, what I do to Him I also do to the Father, and so do you.
I never said "you can't trust that guy!" and I did not mean to imply this either. Neither do I need to make anything into a contradiction (or make anything into anything at all). I take great offense at your implication that I would try to lower Jesus, as if I could or would ever desire to do such. Personally, I think many Christians lower Jesus every time they open their mouth and spout off nonsense without any inkling of wisdom or understanding, but I usually keep that opinion to myself. What I do to the least of Yahwehs creation I do to Him. I don't lower Yahshua (or Jesus), I just recognize (as did Yahshua) that Yahweh is greater then he is. Perhaps I could now accuse you of lowering the status of God? I'd rather not accuse you of doing anything, but hopefully seeking to know Yahweh and to serve Him as a good and faithful steward and of following the teachings of Jesus the Christ. If I were to judge you at all, this would be the way I would prefer to judge you. Not on your understanding (or lack of understanding as the case may be) but on your desire to know and serve Yahweh.
Brother, you will see Him for who and what He is if you wish to.
It is my most heartfelt desire to know Him as He is and to follow Him as well as I am able, as well as HE enables me.
God bless and keep you in Him,
John Vogel
